Yep! When I produced a festival showcasing women playwrights (because most plays performed in England are by white men) I got abuse too. People asked "When are you going to put on a festival for male playwrights?" I was trying to achieve gender parity for my company, which I now have. I did answer a few naysayers by suggesting they put on a festival showcasing male playwrights. I would be happy to support by giving advice and coming to see it. Needless to say none of them did!
Jess. This is soooo good. Thank you for coining this super helpful term “whataboutery”. It’s such a great label and gives us a way to name this ridiculousness. Keep going. You are doing the most incredible job.
We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.
Don't forget that women attempt suicide twice as much as men
Bollocks, men commit suicide for the reasons mentioned in the essay, there are plenty of men's helplines and places men can go.
Men are the ones letting other men die by suicide, you aren't safe spaces for each other, you can't talk to each other, build supportive networks with each other, you raise boys to think they aren't allowed to have any emotion but anger, then they don't know what to do with them.
It is not that mental health strategies were built for women, it is that men will not seek help from professionals or get help from his peers, mostly because he feels he can't without being ridiculed.
"Like a compass needle that points north, a man's accusing finger always finds a woman. Always."
Instead of claiming that we are "blaming men" and are "anti-men", take a look at the way men treat each other, take a look at the way men raise their sons (if the bother at all), then maybe you will realise what the issues are and where the finger should really be pointing.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. I can't tell how many times I have tried talking about IPV to men (men I even care about deeply) who immediately say, "It happens to men to you know". So exhausting and demoralizing.
This is so interesting to read about. I work primarily with men these days and get, "What about women?" comments all the time, but they come from genuine care and desire for support and help, not this internet style of trolling. I find online that any time someone discounts the content of a piece with a "Whatabout..." is a deflection and not laden with real curiosity or care. In my experience, the men (and women) who genuinely care about men's mental health and justice in family courts (for example) don't discount care and spaces for justice for women and noon-binary folks. They are true allies who are working in parallel and concert to expand care and justice for all.
Hi Jadene. I know this grievance has been manipulated by MRA (which I don't support). And at the same time I wish that it weren't the case, but I have worked with many men and have spoken to douzens of lawyers who see biases in the system and dads losing custody unfairly. And that is not the point of this article. Each of us can have our own injustices to face and we don't need to invalidate one person's to validate another's.
The MRM is a bunch of frustrated men who can see a clear injustice which has been happening since the start of the feminist hate ideology.
I'm not surprised they are constantly attacked for having the cheek to speak out
Bring up issues about men and the silence is galling.
Here in Ireland there was an enormous push about road safety some years ago.
Something like 140 people died on Irish roads.
The sad fact is over 400 men took their own lives in the same year.
The rate of suicide was over 5>1 compared to women.
They were just the confirmed ones.
Death by misadventure, or single car incidences have been suspected of being suicides but the families are told the truth.
If as much concern had been put into keeping men from killing themselves it would be lovely but there's no chance of that while they get blamed for everything
"I could switch over to the social media account for the male mental health centre and write literally anything about the experiences of men, and nothing bad would ever happen. "
This is very atypical. Perhaps (and I'm just guessing here) it's because of your personal involvement in a tragic male suicide you were shielded from negative feedback. Or perhaps (again just guessing) it's because you write about male issues through a feminist lens, which makes your support for men socially acceptable to feminists and the status quo in general.
I say that because in this post you made a point of blaming men (the 'patriarchy') for the pressures men face, and the lack of empathy/ sympathy which they are shown. This feminist formula ("patriarchy hurts men too") lets women off the hook, and does not demand women reevaluate their own sexist behaviour, innate (or learnt) biases, selfishness, lack of compassion and innate tendency towards narcissism/ solipsism (which is a crying shame because this kind of self examination and gloriously frank self criticism is actually the most effective path to genuine female empowerment).
As society s l o w e l y begins to recognise men's suffering, men's lack of legal equality wth women and society's sexist discrimination against men feminism has provided this convenient formula to nullify all of it, and maintain women's supremacy over men (in terms of emotional and material entitlement). This formula (women's suffering is men's fault, and men's suffering is also men's fault - therefore women remain top victims and men's suffering is just collateral damage from men's war on women) maintains the status quo of women having no perceived agency (and therefore no social responsibility, and certainly no responsibility to help or protect men) and men having an excess of agency (and therefore no right to expect any sympathy or support from women).
My point being, you seem to adhere to this formula (it's expressed in this blog post), and this might explain why feminists did not come after you for helping men. As long as you maintain the feminist frame, you are not addressing the root causes of male suffering (or for that matter women's feeling of powerlessness and helplessness) and so the status quo (AKA gender roles) that feminism has laid down are not being threatened at all.
By way of comparison we can look at Erin Pizzey who set up the first women's shelter in the UK (1970's I think). She soon came to realise that domestic violence was almost always reciprocal (violent women tended to partner up with similarly violent men). This is because violent behaviour is generally the product of growing up in a violent and dysfunctional household, which both boys and girls are subjected to.
She asked all the women in her shelter if they abused their (abusive) husbands and most of them said they did. You can watch some of these groups discussions on youtube (in various documentaries about her work). The women are quite frank. They admit to losing it and getting into a violent rage, just like their husbands were prone to do. So anyway, she tried to set up some shelters for male victims of domestic abuse, as well as educate the public that DV was in fact a non gendered issue. She was immediately attacked and ostracised by feminists for doing this, kicked out of her own shelter/ charity (which she had set up) and eventually had to flee the country after her dog was killed and she had constant death threats. The bomb squad even insisted on opening all of her mail.
Erin's story is significant because although she was a celebrated feminist (at the time) she actually transgressed against feminist ideology by recognising women's AGENCY and women's EQUAL CAPACITY FOR VIOLENCE. In essence, she recognised women's raw power. As it turned out women were not passive church mice with squeaky little voices, like celebrated feminist spokeswoman Emma Watson. Women were actually a force to be reckoned with, and a force quite capable of inflicting damage on men. This kind of realisation is pure Kryptonite to feminist ideology which likes to portray all women as small and weak, like Emma Watson.
Erin shattered the notion that women are default victims (by virtue of being female) and men are default perpetrators (by virtue of being male). She exposed how DV was a non gendered issue.
Feminists are smart enough to realise that helping men or women is not the issue, the issue is whether or not you reinforce or challenge feminist ideology (feminist's hyper-traditional concepts of gender where women are mice and men are monsters). By recognising women's agency (and power!) Erin obliterated feminist dogma and her studies on DV threatened to completely re-write how we view all gender roles and gender issues in society.
From their perspective, the feminists were quite right to run out of the country in order to maintain the status quo. They really had no other choice, because as a woman, a saviour to battered wives and an erudite and informed speaker on gender issues, Erin and her findings could not be easily hand waved away ...... By contrast, even though you were helping men you still blame 'the patriarchy' (ie men) for men's suffering which means you reinforce feminist dogma, traditional gender roles and you maintain the feminist status quo.
This is why (I am guessing) you were left alone, and even encouraged and supported in your advocacy.
I now have a word for what I went through each year I would participate in IWD events at work. My (now ex partner) would refuse to acknowledge the event at home or work (we worked in the same industry healthcare big pharma). We I should say he didn't acknowledge the day to me, each year he would send a 'whataboutery' email or phone call to the heads of the company asking what are the internal mens day events. Funny how he was laid of this year.
Continue in your chosen field with nous and dignity. You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all the people some of the time,but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Such are the vagaries and risks associated with human interaction.
Actually, sure. About men: Men are the source of 90% of violent crimes against literally everyone internationally.
Yep! When I produced a festival showcasing women playwrights (because most plays performed in England are by white men) I got abuse too. People asked "When are you going to put on a festival for male playwrights?" I was trying to achieve gender parity for my company, which I now have. I did answer a few naysayers by suggesting they put on a festival showcasing male playwrights. I would be happy to support by giving advice and coming to see it. Needless to say none of them did!
Jess. This is soooo good. Thank you for coining this super helpful term “whataboutery”. It’s such a great label and gives us a way to name this ridiculousness. Keep going. You are doing the most incredible job.
There's a deep seated belief in society that only men matter.
We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.
Don't forget that women attempt suicide twice as much as men
The problem with that crap is the simple fact that no one respects men who have fee-fees
Leaving a weepy note on the table and taking a few pills before a friend is due to come over is not a suicide attempt, it's a cry for help.
Men choose more violent means of taking their lives because they really want out.
There is no help for men.
All the mental help there is, is designed with women in mind, not men.
Even how physicists sit facing their clients doesn't suit men, men sit shoulder to shoulder when dealing with issues of the soul.
Men deal with feelings in a different way than women.
Women need to talk men need to solve the problem.
Even while you think you are helping you're just blaming men for being who they are in an increasingly anti-male culture.
Bollocks, men commit suicide for the reasons mentioned in the essay, there are plenty of men's helplines and places men can go.
Men are the ones letting other men die by suicide, you aren't safe spaces for each other, you can't talk to each other, build supportive networks with each other, you raise boys to think they aren't allowed to have any emotion but anger, then they don't know what to do with them.
It is not that mental health strategies were built for women, it is that men will not seek help from professionals or get help from his peers, mostly because he feels he can't without being ridiculed.
"Like a compass needle that points north, a man's accusing finger always finds a woman. Always."
Instead of claiming that we are "blaming men" and are "anti-men", take a look at the way men treat each other, take a look at the way men raise their sons (if the bother at all), then maybe you will realise what the issues are and where the finger should really be pointing.
Plenty of men's helplines with clueless people operating them
Here in Ireland the suicide rate between men and women is over 5-1
Thank you, thank you, thank you for writing this. I can't tell how many times I have tried talking about IPV to men (men I even care about deeply) who immediately say, "It happens to men to you know". So exhausting and demoralizing.
Nailed it!
The phrase, "I don’t care about women, talk about men!", hit for me. Yes, that's the underlying emotion. Not a care for equality or anything else.
This is so interesting to read about. I work primarily with men these days and get, "What about women?" comments all the time, but they come from genuine care and desire for support and help, not this internet style of trolling. I find online that any time someone discounts the content of a piece with a "Whatabout..." is a deflection and not laden with real curiosity or care. In my experience, the men (and women) who genuinely care about men's mental health and justice in family courts (for example) don't discount care and spaces for justice for women and noon-binary folks. They are true allies who are working in parallel and concert to expand care and justice for all.
Hi Jadene. I know this grievance has been manipulated by MRA (which I don't support). And at the same time I wish that it weren't the case, but I have worked with many men and have spoken to douzens of lawyers who see biases in the system and dads losing custody unfairly. And that is not the point of this article. Each of us can have our own injustices to face and we don't need to invalidate one person's to validate another's.
The MRM is a bunch of frustrated men who can see a clear injustice which has been happening since the start of the feminist hate ideology.
I'm not surprised they are constantly attacked for having the cheek to speak out
Bring up issues about men and the silence is galling.
Here in Ireland there was an enormous push about road safety some years ago.
Something like 140 people died on Irish roads.
The sad fact is over 400 men took their own lives in the same year.
The rate of suicide was over 5>1 compared to women.
They were just the confirmed ones.
Death by misadventure, or single car incidences have been suspected of being suicides but the families are told the truth.
If as much concern had been put into keeping men from killing themselves it would be lovely but there's no chance of that while they get blamed for everything
"I could switch over to the social media account for the male mental health centre and write literally anything about the experiences of men, and nothing bad would ever happen. "
This is very atypical. Perhaps (and I'm just guessing here) it's because of your personal involvement in a tragic male suicide you were shielded from negative feedback. Or perhaps (again just guessing) it's because you write about male issues through a feminist lens, which makes your support for men socially acceptable to feminists and the status quo in general.
I say that because in this post you made a point of blaming men (the 'patriarchy') for the pressures men face, and the lack of empathy/ sympathy which they are shown. This feminist formula ("patriarchy hurts men too") lets women off the hook, and does not demand women reevaluate their own sexist behaviour, innate (or learnt) biases, selfishness, lack of compassion and innate tendency towards narcissism/ solipsism (which is a crying shame because this kind of self examination and gloriously frank self criticism is actually the most effective path to genuine female empowerment).
As society s l o w e l y begins to recognise men's suffering, men's lack of legal equality wth women and society's sexist discrimination against men feminism has provided this convenient formula to nullify all of it, and maintain women's supremacy over men (in terms of emotional and material entitlement). This formula (women's suffering is men's fault, and men's suffering is also men's fault - therefore women remain top victims and men's suffering is just collateral damage from men's war on women) maintains the status quo of women having no perceived agency (and therefore no social responsibility, and certainly no responsibility to help or protect men) and men having an excess of agency (and therefore no right to expect any sympathy or support from women).
My point being, you seem to adhere to this formula (it's expressed in this blog post), and this might explain why feminists did not come after you for helping men. As long as you maintain the feminist frame, you are not addressing the root causes of male suffering (or for that matter women's feeling of powerlessness and helplessness) and so the status quo (AKA gender roles) that feminism has laid down are not being threatened at all.
By way of comparison we can look at Erin Pizzey who set up the first women's shelter in the UK (1970's I think). She soon came to realise that domestic violence was almost always reciprocal (violent women tended to partner up with similarly violent men). This is because violent behaviour is generally the product of growing up in a violent and dysfunctional household, which both boys and girls are subjected to.
She asked all the women in her shelter if they abused their (abusive) husbands and most of them said they did. You can watch some of these groups discussions on youtube (in various documentaries about her work). The women are quite frank. They admit to losing it and getting into a violent rage, just like their husbands were prone to do. So anyway, she tried to set up some shelters for male victims of domestic abuse, as well as educate the public that DV was in fact a non gendered issue. She was immediately attacked and ostracised by feminists for doing this, kicked out of her own shelter/ charity (which she had set up) and eventually had to flee the country after her dog was killed and she had constant death threats. The bomb squad even insisted on opening all of her mail.
Erin's story is significant because although she was a celebrated feminist (at the time) she actually transgressed against feminist ideology by recognising women's AGENCY and women's EQUAL CAPACITY FOR VIOLENCE. In essence, she recognised women's raw power. As it turned out women were not passive church mice with squeaky little voices, like celebrated feminist spokeswoman Emma Watson. Women were actually a force to be reckoned with, and a force quite capable of inflicting damage on men. This kind of realisation is pure Kryptonite to feminist ideology which likes to portray all women as small and weak, like Emma Watson.
Erin shattered the notion that women are default victims (by virtue of being female) and men are default perpetrators (by virtue of being male). She exposed how DV was a non gendered issue.
Feminists are smart enough to realise that helping men or women is not the issue, the issue is whether or not you reinforce or challenge feminist ideology (feminist's hyper-traditional concepts of gender where women are mice and men are monsters). By recognising women's agency (and power!) Erin obliterated feminist dogma and her studies on DV threatened to completely re-write how we view all gender roles and gender issues in society.
From their perspective, the feminists were quite right to run out of the country in order to maintain the status quo. They really had no other choice, because as a woman, a saviour to battered wives and an erudite and informed speaker on gender issues, Erin and her findings could not be easily hand waved away ...... By contrast, even though you were helping men you still blame 'the patriarchy' (ie men) for men's suffering which means you reinforce feminist dogma, traditional gender roles and you maintain the feminist status quo.
This is why (I am guessing) you were left alone, and even encouraged and supported in your advocacy.
Brilliant article!
I now have a word for what I went through each year I would participate in IWD events at work. My (now ex partner) would refuse to acknowledge the event at home or work (we worked in the same industry healthcare big pharma). We I should say he didn't acknowledge the day to me, each year he would send a 'whataboutery' email or phone call to the heads of the company asking what are the internal mens day events. Funny how he was laid of this year.
Congratulations again.
I don't believe the author is being honest. There is no help available for men, but there's countless organizations for women.
#YouOKSis - #NotOk - #EveryDaySexism - #MenArePigs
#MyBodyMyChoice - #DistractinglySexy - #Feminist - #GirlsLikeUs - #FreeTheNipple - #MaleGaze - #MenCallMeThings - #IAmANastyWoman - #CrazyWomen - #MeAt14 - #BeenRapedNeverReported - #HimThough - #NotBuyingIt - #MenAreTrash
#HowIWillChange - #ToxicMasculinity - #TeachMenNotToRape - #NeverAgain - #RedMyLips - #Feminism
#IWillGoOut - #ToTheGirls - #JoinTheDissent - #PowerfulWomen - #AskHerMore - #HerStory - #WhyIStayed - #WhyILeft - #WhyIDidntReport - #BelieveSurvivors - #FeminiStart - #FemFuture
#ImWithHer - #MeToo - #GirlPower - #Feminismopopular - #Fem2 - #NotYourAsianSideKick - #IStandWitJackie - #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen - #BlackGirlsMatterToo - #YesAllWomen - #BelieveAllWomen - #Female - #SurvivorPrivilege - #WomenMakingHistory - #WomenSupportingWomen
#MensMasculinityIsSoFragile - #MenDontTalk - #MenCantBeRaped - #RapeCultureIsWhen - #ManSpreading - #MaleHate - #Feminine - #DudesGreetingDudes - #Manterupting - #ManThreading - #ManSplaining
#TimesUp - #EnoughIsEnough - #NoMoore - #MalePrivilege - #MaleTears - #MaleFragility - #GirlsHaveDicksToo - #GirlBalls - #WomensReality - #MenAreStupid - #MenAreViolent - #MenAreEvil
#Girls - #EffYourBeautyStandards - #HimToo - #BanSex - #NoRightsNoSexForMen - #NoNudes - #InspireInclusion - #CelibateForever - #WomenInPower - #BringBackOurGirls - #HeForShe - #NoMoreMen - #HateAllMen - #KillAllMen - #EndMen
She literally helped start the Eaton Foundation. 🤦🏻♀️
The majority of countries have a Men's Helpline, and the equivalent of a Men's Shed
Continue in your chosen field with nous and dignity. You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all the people some of the time,but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Such are the vagaries and risks associated with human interaction.
thank you for writing this piece. been working as a gender consultant and researcher in Indonesia, and your experience is totally relatable.
Absolutely brilliant. Please write a book about this!
Bravo 👏
Thank-you for your hard work :)